Today a reader, presumably of the Oneness persuasion, left a comment on a post in The Trinity. The reader raised some excellent points I feel are worthy of an entire post. The comment is posted in parts below, in italics, and my response follows.
"Mother of three beautiful boys" writes:
So according to the trinitarian belief, would I be correct to say that there WAS One God at the beginning of time, until He added Jesus?
No. There is, was, and will always be one God. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit collectively make up one God. That said, there are three distinctive characteristics and personalities within the Godhead that the vast majority of Christianity refers to as the Trinity. Where did God come from? We don't know - it's beyond our comprehension. We DO know, however, that Jesus predates time:
- John 8:58: "I say to you, before Abraham was, I am"
- John 17:5: "And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed."
- John 17:24b: "...my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world."
is the only begotten son of the Father:
- John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son..."
- Hebrews 1:5 [referring to Jesus]: "For to which of the angels did God ever say, 'You are my Son, today I have begotten you'? Or again, 'I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son'?"
can only do what the Father does:
- John 5:19: "So Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing..."
- John 5:21: "The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him."
- John 5:30: "...I can do nothing on my own..."
and created the heavens and the earth
- Colossians 1:16: "For by Christ all things were created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible..."].
- Hebrews 1:2: "God has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."
I have yet to see a Oneness explanation for John chapters 5 and 17. It is simply irreconcilable with the Oneness position.
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Should we understand "at the right hand of God" literally; could this be figuratively speaking about authority/power?
So let me get this straight: when Stephen was dying and he said, "I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God" (Acts 7:56), what he really meant his last words to be were...what? Furthermore, you neglected to add the verb that often appears before "at the right hand of God", sitting, in Mark 14:62, Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Ephesians 1:20, Colossians 3:1, Hebrews 1:3, Hebrews 1:13, Hebrews 8:1, and Hebrews 12:2. Consider the contexts of these verses: ALL of them are making the case for the sonship of Christ.
No, these verse are by no means metaphorical, and it's obvious why Oneness pastors steer clear of them.
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One major thing that has always confused me about the trinity is if there are 3 distinct personalities of God, how do we know which "person" to pray to?
There are no biblically recorded prayers to either Jesus or the Holy Spirit. Everytime Jesus taught someone to pray, or prayed himself, it was always directed at his Father (consider Luke 22:42 and Matthew 26:39 in particular). That said, it would be very difficult to make an argument that one shouldn't pray to either Jesus or the Holy Spirit. This seems to be one area in which the Bible is remarkably silent, and thus we are left to our own conscience. However, prayers to the Father are common, and we directed to make our requests to Him, citing the work and the name of Jesus:
- Matthew 6:6 - When you pray, pray to your Father
- Matthew 6:9 / Luke 11:2 - Our Father, who is in heaven...
- Ephesians 3:14, "I bow my knees before the Father..."
- Colossians 1:3, "We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you."
Clearly, no one in these passages is directing his prayers to Jesus. Furthermore, we are assisted in our prayers by the person of the Holy Spirit: Romans 8:26 - "Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words."
I am uncertain how this is either an argument for or against the Trinity.
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And why even mention the name of Jesus today, if he served his purpose at the time he was upon the earth to die and wash all sins, then He fulfilled his "role". Now where is "he", or what is His purpose now? Did Jesus now become the "spirit"?
This question is quite surprising. Sometimes it's apparent that Oneness adherents believe that other "Christians" do not believe in Christ. Jesus Christ's work is the cornerstone and the foundation of the Christian's faith. But it is very different from the perspective Oneness Apostolicism takes.
You see, we believe that Jesus Christ died for ALL our sins (Hebrews 10:11-17), past, present, and future. There is nothing that we can do to make God love us more or less, and this includes the realm of sin, and thus not sinning. Romans teaches us that Christ's work justified us and began the process of sanctification in our lives. When God looks at us, it is through the innocent blood of Christ. Christ purifies us, cleanses us, and we take on his righteousness. Hebrews 10:14 - "For by a single offering, Christ has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." Go ask your pastor if sin will keep you from heaven. If he says yes, then the death and resurrection of Jesus means little to him.
This contrasts quite starkly with the Apostolic view that Christ's death merely gave us the opportunity to pursue God - that Christ's death purged our old sins, but our present and future sins are on us. The road to sanctification in the Oneness, Apostolic camp requires, among other things, rigorous adherence to a strict holiness standard and the belief that sin - any sin - will doom one to hell.
Why do I call on the name of Jesus? Because when I sin - and I always will - I "have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous," (I John 2:1). Jesus lives, he advocates for those he loves, and he's waiting to return for his bride, the church. As far as where is he, see my post here. And no, Jesus is not the Holy Spirit.
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I fully am persuaded He, God, came to this earth Himself. Why would He not? Because He didn't want to? Because He couldn't?
It's remarkable that Oneness Apostolics go to such great lengths to explain away the Trinity, and in the process they lose amazing glimpses of the incredible love of God. For one thing, we see an incredibly clear picture of the as-yet future crucifixion with Abraham and Isaac.
God asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son - the one Abraham was promised and who had done nothing worthy of death. Abraham was willing and Isaac submitted to his father and to God. This is incredible faith that both showed - Abraham was willing to sacrifice someone he'd waited his entire life for and Isaac was willing to be killed, simply by faith. This is both an amazing foreshadowing of what was to come and, through Abraham, also a horrific glimpse into the pain that God the Father must've experienced watching his Son be crucified and suffer. Oneness misses this.
God the Father loved us so much that he sent his only Son, his perfect, sinless Son, to die the most horrible death imaginable to humans. And for whom? For dirty, wicked, sinful people like us. The Father loved Jesus - we see this at Jesus' baptism and particularly at his crucifixion - and the pain he experienced watching Jesus die I have no doubt was exponentially greater than anything humans can experience; and yet he did it. He allowed it. He loves us that much. Oneness miss this too.
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Lastly, I think it is good to keep in mind that the UPCI is an organization of ministers, not saints/church members. This is important when discussing some of the lifestyle standards that the UPCI upholds for their ministers.-Mother of 3 Beautiful Boys
Well...the UPCI Ministerial Manual begs to differ:
“We wholeheartedly disapprove of our people [referring to members of UPCI churches] indulging in any activities which are not conducive to good Christianity and godly living, such as theaters, dances, mixed bathing, women cutting their hair, make- up, any apparel that immodestly exposes the body, all worldly sports and amusements, and unwholesome radio programs and music.
Furthermore because of the display of all these evils on television, we disapprove of any of our people having television sets in their homes. We admonish all of our people to refrain from any of these practices in the interest of spiritual progress and the soon coming of the Lord for His church.”
No, the fundamentalistic rules of the UPCI are not limited to pastors: they apply to every member of every UPC church, regardless of what individual pastors teach.
8 comments:
You say that there is no way oneness Theology can reconcile John chapter 17. I have found that reason, and have released the information in my book: "The Timelesss Age of God."
(1) God dwells outside of creation and is timeless. Therefore, He always exists as the BEGINNING and ENDING of all things.
(2) The Son of Man ascended outside of creation,into the Spirit of the Timeless God
(3) Because of this truth, God gave Jews traditions of the Son of Man's "pre-existence" and "ever-presence" in heaven
(4) Jesus believed in these traditions, and incorporated them in His prayer in John 17. If you read carefully, He also says that God HAD given the apostles to Him "out of the cosmos." This reflects the belief that the saints of God would also ascend into this timeless domain of God.
Russ
P.S. Even if you do not post this comment, you should read this book, in order to be informed of an additional, historic belief (called the doctrine of "two aeons" in Kittles, and the "Aperion" by Greeks, and the "Olam Habba" by Jews.
THIS MEANS OUR VERY LIVES, now and after death.
John 14:28 Jesus said "the Father is greater than I am."
John 1:18 "No one has seen God at ANY TIME." Jesus was seen by many while he was on earth and when he assended.
Colossians 1:15 Says Jesus "is the image of God," and, "first born of creation," and, "the beginning."
Rev. 22:13 Jesus says "he is the beginning and the end."
ALMIGHTY GOD has no beginning, he created Jesus, who stated he (Jesus) is the beginning.
Jesus said the "Father is greater than I am," Bible says "no one has seen God at ANY TIME," Jesus is "image of God, first born of creation, and the beginning." How can Jesus be God. God gave us a very simple example: Father and Son. Take a look at any human Father and Son, they are made of the same stuff, but 2 very different beings.PLUS
TRINITY-Athanasian Creed. IS NOT IN THE BIBLE ANYWHERE. ADDING TO THE BIBLE(SEE BELOW). It is man made from the 4th Century, by MAN. If you read it, you can easily see it contradicts itself over an over. Read Athanasian Creed at this site. http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=athanasian+creed&fr=yfp-t-501-s&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8
We are warned very clearly at Matt 15:9 "It is in vain they keep worshiping me, because they teach COMMANDS OF MEN, AS DOCTRINES."
John 17:3 "THIS MEANS EVERLASTING LIFE, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth Jesus."
Matt 24:36 Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father." Cannot be the same being, only Father knows.
Rev. 22:18 If anyone adds things to the Bible "God will add to him the plagues."
Rev 22:19 Jesus says "if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll, God will take his portion away from the tree of life." ALL COMES FROM THE BIBLE FOR ANYONE TO SEE AND READ.
Signed: Most Humble
THIS MEANS OUR VERY LIVES, now and after death.
John 14:28 Jesus said "the Father is greater than I am."
John 1:18 "No one has seen God at ANY TIME." Jesus was seen by many while he was on earth and when he assended.
Colossians 1:15 Says Jesus "is the image of God," and, "first born of creation," and, "the beginning."
Rev. 22:13 Jesus says "he is the beginning and the end."
ALMIGHTY GOD has no beginning, he created Jesus, who stated he (Jesus) is the beginning.
Jesus said the "Father is greater than I am," Bible says "no one has seen God at ANY TIME," Jesus is "image of God, first born of creation, and the beginning." How can Jesus be God. God gave us a very simple example: Father and Son. Take a look at any human Father and Son, they are made of the same stuff, but 2 very different beings.PLUS
TRINITY-Athanasian Creed. IS NOT IN THE BIBLE ANYWHERE. ADDING TO THE BIBLE(SEE BELOW). It is man made from the 4th Century, by MAN. If you read it, you can easily see it contradicts itself over an over. Read Athanasian Creed at this site. http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=athanasian+creed&fr=yfp-t-501-s&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8
We are warned very clearly at Matt 15:9 "It is in vain they keep worshiping me, because they teach COMMANDS OF MEN, AS DOCTRINES."
John 17:3 "THIS MEANS EVERLASTING LIFE, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth Jesus."
Matt 24:36 Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father." Cannot be the same being, only Father knows.
Rev. 22:18 If anyone adds things to the Bible "God will add to him the plagues."
Rev 22:19 Jesus says "if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll, God will take his portion away from the tree of life." ALL COMES FROM THE BIBLE FOR ANYONE TO SEE AND READ.
Signed: Most Humble
Actually my friend, when Stephen looked to heaven and saw the Son sitting at the right hand of God, he called out, (Acts 7:59 ESV) "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Ron Rhodes in arguing for the Trinity and the Divinity of the Son against Jehovah's Witness teaching, says that Stephen was praying to Jesus.
I recently expressed to a Oneness Pastor how they missed the beauty of the Trinity by missing the great love the Father had for us to give up the Son of His Love for us rotten sinners. Tragically the response I recieved was this..."I don't want some God who did not have the guts to come die for me but sent His son." What a sad comment...I felt like crying, God have mercy on his soul!
They often critique Trinitarian theology on the point of the Father sending the Son. They say, "What kind of Father would make his son give his life to save someone else? A real Father would come himself."
They say these things believing that they have the true revelation of the godhead.
But if God reveals Himself as one being in three persons, it would be idolatry to create our own image of God and refuse to worship Him as He reveals himself.
I once heard a UPC pastor say, "If I get to heaven and God is a Trinity, I'm leaving." How very true--but he won't be leaving on his own accord, he'll be leaving because the Father will say, "Depart from me, I never knew you."
Please explain the verse the in the beginning was the word and the word was with god and the word was god. and the word became flesh..... Does that not just say that God became flesh??? if the word was god and that word became flesh??? My friend be open and honest and tell me what that means in reality? not in terms of oneness or trinity terms but in terms of what is the "truth"??
Of course John 1:1 & 14 are teaching that God came in the flesh. Trinitarians and Oneness people affirm that Jesus is God in the flesh. What Oneness people do not affirm is that the Word was with God in a personal sense--face to face. Oneness people believe that the Word was a plan or idea of God.
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