While surfing the web, I came across a website of whose existence I was unaware - a site called whyileft.org, another young man's explanation to his family and friends concerning why he left the United Pentecostal Church. A prominent section of his site was entitled "My Story" and explained his process of leaving the UPC. While reading it, I realized that the story of my journey out of UPC, perhaps the most powerful communicator of this website, even the reason I maintain, is significantly lacking. After all, aren't we supposed to share our stories to "comfort others as we have been comforted"? Certainly, many will not see my story as "comfort," but it's my hope that the many, many individuals who legitimately question Oneness Apostolicism will find this article (and website) helpful.
Quizzes
I was raised a 5th-generation member of the United Pentecostal Church, International. My great-grandfather pioneered several churches in Louisiana and my grandfather pastored for several decades in Louisiana, Mississippi, and Arkansas. Growing up, I was continually reminded of my "Apostolic heritage" and it became a source of pride for me in some ways. My family was beloved in the church I wa
s raised in - my father was the Sunday School Director and my mother the Music Director - and I saw my parents embody true, loving Christianity on many, many occasions. As a family, we were conservative, but my sister and I were also encouraged to think for ourselves. I remember many discussions about an aspect of a preacher's sermon my parents didn't agree with and scripture was always required to strengthen any argument or position. But, of course, the line was drawn at Apostolic beliefs - those were untenable, unquestionable, and rarely researched.
At the age of eight, I entered the United Pentecostal Church's Junior Bible Quizzing program and began memorizing 250 scriptures in the book of John. The next year scriptures to be memorized covered "Apostolic Doctrine"; the next year was Acts. I was attracted to the competitiveness Bible Quizzing offered and the chance to succeed. What I now realize, however, was that it was also the beginning of the Holy Spirit putting his seal on me, teaching me about God and his word. During the 11 years I quizzed, a conservative estimate is that I memorized around 3,500 different scriptures, comprising the entire books of Galatians, Ephesians, Colossians, I & II Timothy, Titus, and I & II Peter and portions of Psalms, Proverbs, Mark, John, Acts, and Romans. These scriptures impacted me at a very early age but would haunt me later when I began asking answerless questions.
By the time I was in my early teens, I began to question the entire concept of Oneness theology, one of the cornerstones of the UPC. It seemed obvious to me that Jesus was not his own Father and the entire point of Oneness theology was lost on me. I simply didn't see it as a heaven-or-hell issue. The few scriptures that were supplied to support Oneness like "I and my Father are one," and "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is One," didn't seem to refute any notion of a triune God. Although this process was in its infancy, it didn't become a full-fledged dilemma until about five years later. I mostly kept my questions to myself and employed nearly every means possible to convince myself that the "Truth", as it was presented to me, was indeed true.
Immersion?
As a freshman in college, I relocated to the Baton Rouge area to attend LSU and the Denham Springs First Pentecostal Church. There, attempting to affirm the Truth, I connected almost instantly and found myself directing the youth choir, coaching quizzing, leading an on-campus student ministry, and involving myself in nearly every church-sponsored activity. In this church I was immersed in Oneness doctrine on a weekly basis as well as a few unsavory diatribes directed toward people of other faiths, Christian and non-Christian. My trinitarian leanings, no matter how much I attempted to control them, began to surface. Scriptures memorized in Bible Quizzing stood out to me; I questioned everything I heard. Among my UPC friends, I became known as "The Trinitarian" and was encouraged to be less vocal about scriptures that disprove Oneness theology "because it might damage my reputation." Questioning Apostolic doctrine was an unwelcome activity but I couldn't damper the insistent questions I faced.
Frequently on Sunday nights I tried to reconcile the night's sermon with scripture, and sometimes that happened with success. Other times, particularly when there had been "tongues and interpretations" that very clearly did not align with Scripture, I was unsuccessful. The entire time I carried a mantle of self-imposed importance, trying to hide my growing disbelief because I was perceived as a leader in the youth grouop.
Double Jeopardy
During my five-year tenure at the Denham Springs church, nagging questions that haunted me expanded to include why is there so much venom from the pulpit directed toward Muslims, Catholics, those involved in homosexuality? Why do the "tongues and interpretations" given during service conflict with scripture? Why do we have to use manipulation to convince people to "become saved" (particularly after September 11th)? Why do we only rehash the same scriptures over and over and ignore the ones that challenge Oneness?
I allowed myself to dwell on these questions, but frequently on Sunday nights, when there was a "move of the Spirit" and my emotions ran high, I felt guilty for ever thinking the Oneness Apostolic movement was anything less than the God-ordained plan for Christianity. The Sunday night adrenaline rush, which every UPC adherent can relate to, was a powerful antidote to acting on my questions. But like all emotions, the Sunday night adrenaline rush does little to quiet mental unease and is absolutely worthless when confronted with powerful scriptures.
During this time, I was often curious why God chose the methods he apparently chose for what I was told by my pastor was his church. Why would God have an interest in whether women wore pants given the myriad of cultures in the world? How does dancing in the Spirit really glorify him? Why would God be anti-TV, but not anti-internet? I certainly understood that man's laws can be markedly different than God's, but I'd been taught that all of the rules and "standards" were at the divine inspiration of God and questioning them was akin to questioning God. I wasn't quite yet ready to question Him, although that time was coming.
The beginning of the end...
In the fall of 2003, some UPC friends invited me to attend a service for college-age young adults at Healing Place Church, a large non-denominational, trinitarian church in South Baton Rouge. I experienced their worship, their fellowship, and their teaching and it was an eye-opening experience. From a child, I had been conditioned to think of non-Apostolic "Christians" as a cold, callous, ill-informed, and dying group of people, yet here was irrefutable evidence to the contrary confronting me. Attendees genuinely worshipped God, and while it lacked the dancing in the Spirit, there was a tangible electricity in the air I'd come to associate with the Spirit. A conversation I'd had two weeks prior flooded my mind: a UPC friend confided in me how ashamed she felt while riding in a car with a Christian, non-UPC coworker. The coworker honestly shared her faith and her genuineness and joy struck my friend, who felt intimidated and insecure in her own faith when compared to her coworker. The coworker's faith was complete and mature, as-is, and without some of the unique things UPC considers vital. As I stood in the enormous sanctuary, filled with non-dress code-abiding trinitarian worshipers, I thought about that conversation. I realized how big the Body of Christ is and how little UPC knows about it. I felt terrified because I was literally watching everything I'd been taught, everything I had come to associate with myself, everything I claimed to be, slowly start to crumble, and I dreaded the thought of communicating this to my family and friends.
The Rebellion of Goatees
My questions coalesced and in October of 2003, over lunch with a close relative who is still UPC, I mustered up the courage and confided that I no longer believed UPC or Oneness Apostolic doctrine to be accurate. She shared some of my concerns but asked me to stay, "just in case I was wrong." I promised I'd think it over. You see, I thought I had to stay in UPC and pretend to agree with its doctrine in some sort of inflated, grandiose protection of those whom I led in youth choir, quizzing, and within my own family - evidence of my hypocrisy and denial.
This coincided with a particularly harsh Sunday morning sermon delivered by the Senior Pastor in which some very derogatory comments and gestures were made, mocking a very serious sin struggle. I was mortified and personally injured by his insensitivity and abuse of the pulpit. A complete lack of love, tact, and education had finally embodied one too many sermons for me. Incensed by what I had heard, I walked out of the sanctuary during his sermon, went home, and finally confronted what I didn't want to admit. I knew God was leading me out of the UPC, but I was terrified of the unknown, the black hole of ex-UPCism, the shame placed on "backsliders" whose ranks I would all-too-soon join. But I missed the point.
That morning, I realized that I was living a lie - I had acknowledged that the Oneness Apostolic doctrine was fundamentally, fatally erred, and my maintenance of its status quo was deceitful and harmful to me and even those around me. In retrospect, I sincerely believe God was confronting me, not over UPC's doctrinal issues, but about my own hypocrisy and denial. I was not yet a believer in Christ and I knew it, and that was terrifying.
I resigned from the Youth Choir, but my resignation was refused. I was deemed "too valuable" to let go. In rebellion, I grew a goatee, wandered in late to church, and sat in the back. I felt very detached, isolated, and confused. You see, my spiritual house had been built on the UPC sandbar of superiority and arrogance, and the rising tide of the Holy Spirit had washed it away. Uncertain where to look for higher ground, I was spiritually homeless. I was unprepared to embrace the doctrines of mainstream Christianity, primarily because I didn't know enough about them and because of the lies I believed regarding them.
Through sheer providence - a testament of God's sovereignty - in February of 2004, I was able to relocate to Memphis, Tennessee. I pounced on the opportunity because I was floundering. While I saw it as a weak excuse to get away from the Denham Springs church, I believe God orchestrated it to teach me more about him.
Blinders
In Memphis, I began attending a large, contemporary Baptist church - Germantown Baptist. The pastor, Sam Shaw, was fiery, educated, and tactful and his sermons challenged me to become a better Christian and to know the God who sacrificed his only son for me. Oneness can't acknowledge that God. The emotional hype and manipulation was gone and I was suddenly free to worship God how I felt most comfortable - in my heart. I was surrounded by a body of true believers who lacked the legalistic, conceited disdain of a dress code and the shock of that lasted for several years.
For the first time in my life, I was in a Bible-believing church. I was surrounded by a group of men with ironically biblical names who took special care in discipling me. They did not rush my process out of UPC mindsets. Even though I was physically removed from UPC services, I found it difficult to transition my thoughts and expectations out of UPC doctrines. Scripture after scripture confounded me and I went to the men who discipled me, questioning them about their meanings. Early 2004 was a time of intense growth for me, and it was during this period that God began to open my heart to the answers to the questions I had been asking for years. No, Jesus is not his own Father. No, God is not a jack-in-the-box we can conjure up by chanting "Jesus." Yes, Jesus died for all my sins, past, present, and future. No, the church did not disappear from the earth altogether prior to 1900 (the first instance of speaking in tongues in modern history). Yes, I can absolutely be assured of my salvation for all eternity. Yes, God predestined me from the foundation of the world to be conformed to the image of his son.
On July 8, 2004, while sitting on my bed one morning quietly doing a devotional in the books of John and Romans, it hit me. The magnitude of God's grace, the depth of his love, the joy of justification, the hope of sanctification, and the reality of being his carefully designed creation suddenly became crystal clear. I knew, beyond a shadow of a doubt, I had a Heavenly Father who had been weaving the fabric of my life, even the years spent learning UPC doctrines. I knew that it would all work together, even the disparate pieces that remain today.
On December 4, 2005, I met my future wife in Sunday School, a young lady who embodies the essence of feminine holiness and grace, even though she has never lived by UPC's dress code. She practically oozes the Holy Spirit, even though she has never spoken in tongues. And she walks by her faith on a daily basis, even though she never memorized Apostolic doctrine in Bible Quizzing. She is my hero in the faith.
God continues to reveal his grace to me everyday and I find nuggets of truth hidden in places I never noticed. For example, recently my mentor commented on a verse from Romans 10 I've come to know well, "...if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." "Who raised whom from the dead?" he asked. In the five years since leaving UPC, I'd never thought to ask whom they believe raised Jesus - who was dead - from the grave.
If there is one thing I've learned in my post-UPC years, it's that no church is perfect. As human beings, and collectively as churches, we naturally erect blinders to the things that are challenging or that we perceive as threats. Denial is much easier than confrontation. While I'm certain that the process of ridding me of my blinders will be a lifelong task with which God will deal with me, my story thus far is how God, and only God, used UPC's blinders, Bible Quizzing, to reveal his true character to me.
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Additional Resources
- OnenessPentecostal.net
- Christ My Only Hope (also ex-Oneness Pentecostal)
- In Christ Alone! Podcasts
- A former UPC pastor's blog
- Acts 18 Ministries
- Pentecostal Freedom
- Recovering Pentecostal
- SpiritualAbuse.org
- Why I Left (UPC)
- Association of Former Pentecostals
- In Christ Alone Ministries
- The Harbor Blog
- Let Us Reason Ministries
- Discernment Ministries
- "Pulpit Pimps" takes on PAW, COGIC, and others
- Wittenburg Door webzine
- UPC on Wikipedia
- Official site of WPF
- Official site of UPCI
Articles
- church governance (1)
- holiness (5)
- My Story (3)
- salvation (6)
- the trinity (8)
- tongues (1)
- worldwide pentecostal fellowship (2)
- worship (6)
About me
"Experto Crede" is Latin for "Trust me". EC was first conceived in 2004 as a result of the passion and pain I experienced when attempting to separate from the United Pentecostal Church, International and the Oneness Movement. I cannot affirm "Jesus-only" theology as biblically accurate or indicative of a Christian lifestyle. I feel compelled to be a resource for Apostolics who doubt their faith amidst the many unanswered questions that surround UPCI and similar Oneness movements. That said, I believe in the One, true God knowable to us in three distinct personalities: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. - Gerard
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22 comments:
Great post...
I thought your story on the goatee was quite funny, I actually grew a goatee just before I graduated the Oneness Pentecostal school I attended. They said it was against the rules, but because I was the "teachers pet" they let it slide. It also reminds me of all those "Apostolic" girls I knew when they rebelled, would cut their hair.
The first thing that I had trouble with was the Oneness doctrine as well. My problem was the language of biblical writers, it seemed (even being monotheists) wrote as Warfield points out:
"As we read the New Testament, we are not witnessing the birth of a new conception of God. What we meet within its pages is a firmly established conception of God underlying and giving tone to the entire fabric. It is not in a text here and there that the New Testament bears its testimony to the doctrine of the Trinity. The whole book is Trinitarian to the core; all its teaching is built on the assumption of the Trinity; and its allusions to the Trinity are frequent, cursory, easy and confident. It is with a view to the cursoriness of the allusions to it in the New Testament that it has been remarked that “the doctrine of the Trinity is not so much heard as overheard in the statements of Scripture.” It would be more exact to say that it is not so much inculcated as presupposed. The doctrine of the Trinity does not appear in the New Testament in the making, but as already made". (The Biblical Doctrine of the Trinity, p. 143)
I'm sure your post will relate to several of us that took the journey, and paid the price (emotionally) for following conscience above what was peached as "the truth".
2 Cor. 13:14
Another thing about Oneness Pentecostalism that I came across recently -- I have read from multiple sources that many Oneness Pentecostals actually trace their heritage to Servetus, the man who denied the Trinity as well as the legitimacy of paedobaptism, and was eventually burned at the stake. Interesting.
After reading your story I feel inspired by God to post this. So take the time to read it!
I dare you to post this! If you’re right you will. If you’re wrong, you’ll discard it and hide it from you’re wife.
What about the multitude of scriptures that suggest oneness? Trinitarians don't know what to do with them? Do you know what one of the biggest objections that Judaism has to Christianity? You guessed it, the Trinity. It doesn't jive with the Old Testament or their entire idea of God.
Forget oneness for a second! Is it just a coincidence, that all Trinitarians, fail to baptize the same way as every New Testament example we have, which is in The Name of Jesus?
Trinitarians don't know what to make of acts, or the conversion accounts of when God used Peter to open the door of salvation first to the Jews, on the Day of Pentecost. Then to the half breeds in the account of the Samaritan believers. Then to the gentiles in the account of Cornelius and his household. Then to the Ephesian disciples that Paul ran into. Same exact experience for every conversion account in the New Testament.
Is it just a coincidence that rarely if ever are any of the gifts of the spirit in operation in Trinitarian churches?
I was brought up in Trinitarian churches and lived a very worldly life. I came into Pentecost myself and was not forced or brainwashed into it. Same with my wife. So after our college years of partying, sleeping around, using drugs, filling our souls with worldly music, we were both burned out and hungry for something more real then what I had ever found in protestant churches, and Catholic churches for her. The bottom line is: God's presence only manifests itself strongly where people are separated from this world. Where people have made sacrifices. That is all that the standards are about in the upci. Just manifestations or fruit , of lives that are trying to be separated from the world. Unfortunately you seem to interpret them as a bunch of rules. You seem to suffer from what a lot of 3rd 4th and 5th generation Pentecostals suffer from. You want some freedom just to do your own thing and come to your own conclusions, and I can understand that.
But, I’m telling you, it’s not going to be the same for you as for the people you’re running around with now. Once you go beyond repentance, and are born of the water, and the spirit, as I assume that you have, you enter into covenant with God. And covenant is double edged! It both can kill, and it can make alive. It brings blessings or it brings curses. And as long you keep heading down this broad road your on, you are in for a rough ride my friend. The fact that you would go as far as to create this web site is pretty ballsy!
I understand what you’re saying! Of course you’re sensing the workings of God in the Churches you’re attending now. God is giving those people the gift of repentance. That is the first step in being born again. They are obeying the death of Jesus Christ. But they also have to go beyond that and obey the burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. In other words, be born of the water and the spirit. Or be baptized in Jesus name and filled with the Holy Ghost.
Read this!
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
Obey gospel =
death (repentance)
Burial (baptism in Jesus name) also (born of water)
Resurection (infilling of the Holy Ghost) also (born of spirit)
Examples : Acts 2:38, Acts 8:4-25, Acts 10:1-48, Acts 19:1-7
This dilemma you find yourself in is the downside of being born into such a spiritual heritage. You couldn’t recognize or appreciate how, rare, special, unique, and advantageous your lot in life was. So you traded something so valuable and costly in for some dirty rags. Why? So you could grow your goatee, wear jeans to church, drink a little, watch some T.V. , or whatever. Give me a break! God doesn’t care if you grow a goatee or not! What he cares about is the truth! How to enter into covenant (or marriage) with Himself. And because of your lust to be more worldly, you’ve thrown the baby out with the bathwater and find yourself denying the truth of how to be saved.
Read This:
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called]:
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
That no flesh should glory in his presence.
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
I don’t think you’re weathering the storm very well! And one day, you will have to give an answer to your wife why you didn’t show her the truth, and an account to God why you led others astray by this website. I hope you turn back before it’s too late!
With love,
Bro John
Thanks, John, for your comment. That must've taken you quite a while to write. I will attempt to respond to some of the issues/questions you raised in future posts.
Yes, not only has my wife read your comment on at least three different occasions, but I also posted it for all of my readers to see as well.
Experto Creed,
I just found your site, and I wanted to say that as a fellow ex-oneness pentecostal, I really enjoyed reading how God has sovereignly guided you away from the error that exists within that movement. It has been about 5 years now since the Lord began dealing with my heart on these issues, and now almost a year since I departed my former church which believed in oneness pentecostalism. I was at least (that I know of) a third generation oneness pentecostal on both sides of my family. Instead of taking up all of your bandwidth space and being lengthy with the details, you can read a little bit about my journey here:
http://www.pulpit-pimps.org/archives/2007/11/01/the-struggles-of-a-oneness-dude-at-a-fork-in-the-road
This is a website that I sometimes contribute to. It is one dedicated to warning the sheep about the false teachings modern day "pimpery" in the pulpits that is prevalent throughout Christendom. I know because of cultural differences our experiences may be a little different, but I think you'll find that they are also very similar. Reading some of the things on your site caused me to reflect upon the journey that my family and I have encountered, and the joy and freedom in Christ that we have experienced along the way. I was not a part of UPCI (although I am very familiar with the denomination), but I was a part of the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World. Are you familiar with that organization? I'm sure you probably are, because it was started by G.T. Haywood back in the beginning of the 1900's due to the racial misunderstandings. Anyways, keep writing and encouraging, and if you feel led to email me, my email address is on the link that I referred you to. Look forward to your reply and I hope to hear from you soon.
Solus Christus,
Craig (A.K.A. Ready4Change from pulpitpimps.org)
P.S. I don't know if you have responded to the gentleman who had posted the scriptures above, but if you need assistance in doing so, just let me know. I have seen many of these objections before, and have even had the same questions myself. I think much of it stems from having a misunderstanding of what the doctrine of the Trinity is.
Blessings to you and your family...
Craig,
Thank you so much for your encouragement! It's a blessing - as you can see, most of my readers think I've lost my mind.
Yes - I am quite aware of PAW and the recent controversy over Brazier's departure over eternal security. I've been debating over whether to create a post on that topic, as it seems most Oneness denominations are in some form of conflict right now. It's sad, and sometimes I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, but the truth of the matter is that there is still so much deception out there, and so many hurt people.
Keep up the good work over at Pulpit Pimps (I have an upcoming post by that same name, but dealing with church governance issues in UPC). I especially liked their take on Reformed doctrine.
Blessings,
Gerard
As I read your story there is something so unsettling...What was that preacher speaking about that made you so upset? How could you belittle the infilling of the Holy Ghost to mere emotion, and how can a woman be your hero who has never received Gods Spirit? You say your well versed in the bible, but what about the word cutting and Dividing, The word offending...
Mark 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
I'll leave this you, one more verse that I think you should think about in these last days.
2 Thess 2:8-11
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion , that they should believe a lie:
we all know about the great falling away. We all know we are in the end times. even if my comment should not get posted, at least you will hear me...You lost your love for the truth...Pray for that love. Pray for a clear mind. Pray for true Salvation.
Anonymous,
Most of your questions I answer in other segments of the site beyond this posting. If you still have questions, I'd be free to answer them.
And yes, my wife is most certainly filled with the Holy Spirit. Nowhere in scripture will you find that the Holy Spirit is nothing more than speaking in tongues. The arrogance of the Oneness position on this, which you have exemplified, is startling and, frankly, un-Christian.
God loves you.rest asure you are just fine.there is nothing God is unhappy with about you .You will not go to Hell wereing a goatee and you will be just fine letting you wife were her paints are makeup .i do believe if you ask God to confirm this he will in your spirit man .you would be so surprised if God would let your spiritural eys see what going on behind the pulpit and with the body of christ.Young man you are a fine one be still and know what you know trust in your self and what God is telling. you enjoy your life.
Honestly G,
This is my first time to actually sit down and read your site. I really appreciate it, and I find it quite helpful. It was almost 2 years after you left that I left UPCI. It was a difficult transition for me too. Unfortunately, I haven't found a new church. :( I miss the music ministry SO much. Me resigning was the hardest thing I think I have done. :Sigh:
My name is Tania. I too am struggling to come to terms with leaving, and I left many years ago! I have been to a few churches, but none that feel like home. Of course my husband is in the military so we move a lot and it's hard to find a church home when you just move a few years later.
I think what I miss most about the UPC is the preaching and music, but also because you really 'belong' to a family there! I miss the closeness and connections. After you leave, you are totally abandoned. So much for leaving the 99 to find the one, if nothing else but to make sure the one is ok. Anyway, I am still searching, still struggling. When does it end? Of course my friends in UPC say it is God's way of calling me back. I don't believe that. I am just so lost, confused and 'spiritually homeless'. (I LOVE that expression, because that is exactly how I feel).
Pray for me!
Tania,
I can definitely relate to what you described. I also went through a feeling of being spiritually homeless. For me, it was more about the Apostolic "identity" that had pervaded every aspect of my life up until I left. Literally everything in/of/about my life revolved around church, being UPC, and "the apostolic message" so when I left, I felt like I was giving up a significant chunk of me.
Some of that is human nature, I believe, but the remainder is indicative of a cult mentality. The UPC very strongly believes that the world is out to get them and they are God's one and only chosen people. That is unhealthy, emotionally and spiritually (not to mention incredibly arrogant).
In my years out of UPC, I have attended 3 different churches, all of them radically different. I have found that it's possible to regain a sense of family and closeness (UPC brainwashes its members that other churches really aren't "churches"). But that sense of "complete identity" is no longer wrapped up in a doctrine, a church, or a denomination. Making that transition was not easy, I will admit. But I think I'm better off because of the change. Now, first and foremost, I'm a "Christian". The other denominational/doctrinal stuff is only superficial.
A resource you might find helpful is Christian Challenge. I can't hyperlink here, but google it. They have a number of resources, including a Yahoo group, for people like "us". God bless you and your journey, Tania.
I enjoyed your story very much! I too am an ex UPCI 6th generation in fact. I started doubting it all when I was kicked out by a very controlling pastor, who was mad because I visited my parents who pastored in a neighboring community. I "backslid" and eventually met and married my husband who is now becoming an A/G pastor. Its amazing how God works things out! although there a few things you say I do not agree with, I can honestly say I know how you feel but, becareful your disgust doesnt turn into hate or you end up as bad as them! God bless!
Gerard, first let me say, your article is very well written and has some truth to it. but reads more like a resume for the path you have chosen to take. Your right, some things don't matter to GOD, but we have to be careful not to bundle the things that do matter with the things that don't. Some of the dangers of quizing or just memorizing the ... See Morescriptures, tends to give a head knowledge without penatrating deep enough into persons spirit, enabling them to rightly divided the word of GOD. Your thoughts are just that.......your thoughts. You can always find people to both agree or disagree. What you clearly do not understand is that salvation (Inside or Outside the UPCI) is to be worked out individually with fear and trembling. It's not legalism to bring your best to GOD. When your love for GOD grows you'll see it! Give it a few years, you'll be changing many things for that beautiful wife of yours, just because you love her and want to make her happy and not youself! ......... Love Frank
Sad...very, very sad
Hi there, Jimmy! Can you enlighten me on which part was sad?
Questions to think about;
1) How many Spirits are there? (John 4:24) says God is Spirit. Does this mean that the Holy Spirit is another Spirit of God, or, are we simply encountering two aspects of the same Spirit?
2) What form was Jesus in before the incarnation? Was he in Spirit form? (reconcile your thought with #1 above). Was there a body before his body was formed in the womb?
3) Can God manifest Himself anyway He chooses? (1Tim 3:16) The Bible specifically says that God was manifested in the flesh. How do you answer this scripture?
4) Why does the Bibles say that Jesus is the "begotten" Son of God? 8 times the begotten son is mentioned in the Bible.
5) If man was formed in the image of God why then do we not have three separate and distinct personalities united in one personage? Instead, our thoughts, words, will and actual manifestation is in one personage.
6) The Bible says that God shed his own blood (Acts 20:28). How did God get flesh and blood? Refer to (1John 3:16).
7) Who will be coming back to "make his enemies his footstool", God or Jesus? (Psalms 110:1)
8) How do you reconcile the following scriptures with the trinitarian doctrine? (Isaiah 9:6, 43:11, 44:6-8, 45:2-6, 45:21-23, 46:8-9,)
9)v Will God give his Glory to another? (Isaiah 42:8)
Gerard,
I have read everything on your website and I know from growing up with you that there is no use in trying to argue with you over any of it because you will come up with something somewhere to support your view. No matter what you do or how far away you get, you are still like your dad in more ways than one!
I can understand you wanting to question the standards of the UPC and I can almost be with on some of it because there isn’t bible to support a lot of it. I can understand too that you were obviously hurt by things that people in that church did or said to you during a difficult time in your life, but I know what’s its like to be judged as I have also been judged not only by others but by you your self at one time or another. That being said, the oneness of God and standards are two totally different aspects. When someone that has been raised in the oneness of God and then starts questioning it, they are on dangerous territory and you know it. You can twist and turn every scripture in the bible and make it read how you want but there is one thing about it, no matter how much you try and deny it, in the quite hours of the night or when your alone during the day somewhere in the back of your mind you will always know that the Lord our God is one Lord, and you‘ll never be able to shake that.
I hope that you will think about what I have said and really read this verse from your own website and give thought to what you are doing……(As Paul writes in Romans16:17-18, run from this type of thinking: "Watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.")
With love,
Phillnet
Hi there Phillnet!
Thanks for your comment! I know you wrote that out of love for me, and I deeply appreciate that. It means a lot to me that you so obviously care. Quick question (that we probably should save for a face-to-face conversation): you felt judged by me? I am very, sincerely sorry you felt that way. I will answer to God for that. I don't recall all the specifics of that time-period, but what I do remember is feeling very awkward and not knowing what to say (at all). I see how that could very easily be misunderstood. Please forgive me.
With regard to Oneness, no, believe it or not, I'm very content believing in the Trinity. It is not something I doubt at all. In fact, my confidence in the scriptural basis of the Trinity is what has led me to create this site. If I doubted it, I wouldn't write about it. I have searched scripture, Phillnet, and there are quite a few passages like John chapters 5 and 17, all the passages about Jesus at the right hand of God, and all the discussion of Jesus being the Son of God that I simply cannot align with a Oneness perspective. And, sadly, those verses are just the beginning of the Apostolic doctrinal issues I can't find in scripture. The issue is, though, I was never hardcore on Oneness theology, which is perhaps why I've turned from it. I never understood where UPC thought scripture indicated Oneness, nor why it was such an important issue. That said, though, those who believe in the Trinity do not believe in three Gods. That, frankly, is a lie.
I hear you loud and clear on Romans 16. But let me ask you this: was it inappropriate for the UPC to split from the Assemblies of God in the 1920s over Oneness theology? If it was appropriate, how do you justify those actions in view of this passage? Sometimes we are called to expose false doctrines and teachers. UPC called themselves doing just that when they caused divisions in Assemblies of God, and that is my intent as well. Yes, I am certainly creating obstacles contrary to the doctrine I was taught, but I'm doing it with scripture in hand. Oneness theology, in my view, is fatally flawed and does not reflect the God of the New Testament.
I hope you and your family are well, and I look forward to seeing y'all sometime soon.
Gerard
Mr. Experto,
I have a question for you. When Jesus was tempted why did the devil say..."If thou be the Son of God". Wouldn’t satan have recognized him as the Son of God from his time spent worshiping him when he was an Angel in Glory?
I curiously await your response with great eagerness,
Stumbled upon your site...very interesting reading. I don't agree with all you wrote, but I do understand your viewpoints. I am a 2nd generation Oneness apostolic. I have no problem with that label, but I know our movement has many flaws, with arrogance and pride topping the list. Obviously, you have studied a great deal on the matter of the Trinity, and I was really encouraged by your willingness to share your experience. However, I don't agree with some of your theological statments and would like to present some thoughts?
1. I don't know that the oneness movement considers Jesus to be His own Father. Actually scripture identifies this role as that of the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary. I believe that the use of the words Father and Son and Spirit in scripture are just for our benefit to understand the sacrifice that God made for us. I beleive that Jesus was God's name from the very beginning of His relationship with man and that He simply took on human flesh to redeem us. Naturally, His name never changed. His titles did (Father, Son, Jehovah (), Adonai, King of Kings, etc. The flesh He called the Son of God so that we could identify His role at that time (similiar idea to who we will see at the trumpet sound: since we cannot see God as Spirit, we will see Him as the express image (person) in Christ Jesus-the glorified person that was raised from the dead to be King of Kings (Hebrews 1).
2. Always thought it was interesting in trinitarian theology that so many were adamantly opposed to baptism in Jesus's name when 1) it is obviously a scriptural mode of baptism and 2) when it was Jesus that paid the price in His blood at Calvary. It certainly wasn't "the Father" or "the Holy Ghost" since neither could die or be crucified. I would love to see your viewpoint on this thought.
I hope you will give consideration to these thoughts and express your viewpoints on them.
Hey there,
Wow, I can so identify with this post. Just stumbled on your site today. Here's my [condensed] story :)
I was born and raised in this movement, sat on a prominent UPC church pew, and Bible Quizzed for five years. Each year I memorized every single verse of the material: portions from Proverbs, epistles, John, Psalms, and the entire book of Romans. Ironically, I also believe that UPCI Bible Quizzing is the reason that I no longer hold to the UPC doctrine. At the time I quizzed, I really didn't "get" the verses I was learning; I liked the trophies ;) But in hindsight, memorizing Romans was one of the best things I ever did.
By the time I was in my early teens, I had been baptized, but was spiritually "bored," without a real relationship with God. This is ironic because I was known as the "Bible scholar" in my Sunday school class. I had never yet spoken in tongues (although I sought for it earnestly), and felt like I was going to hell. I remember going into the prayer room almost every Sunday night and weeping my eyes out asking for the Holy Ghost. Turns out, I was 17 before I actually spoke in tongues.
During my teenage years, slowly but surely, I began discovering some other non-Apostolic ministries, and this is when I discovered true Christian joy. I also believe I was truly "converted" during this time (even before I spoke in tongues). One such resource was John Piper's ministry and book Desiring God, which had an absolutely profound impact on me. I now consider myself a Reformed charismatic (similar, for example, to Sovereign Grace Ministries). Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology and my ESV Study Bible are some of my favorite study aids ;)
By no means do I believe that all Apostolic people are unsaved. I am so thankful for the godly heritage I received, and would not be who I am today apart from my grandparents and parents. So many people in the Apostolic movement have helped shape me in a positive way. However, I have also been damaged by many of the doctrines. I feel compassion for people in the movement who could have their consciences injured by certain teachings. And I no longer attend a UPC church.
Anyway, just wanted to say I resonate with this post. Sorry for the rambling. Haven't yet read anything else on the website, but hope to soon.
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